EPISODE NAME: Building It Up and Handing it Down — The Tokach Family Talks How They Got Here and What’s Next 

HOSTS: Miranda Reiman and Mark McCully  

GUESTS: Richard and Kathy Tokach  

Traditions can be a nice foundation for or a barrier to progress, and the key lies in knowing which to keep and which to use as a springboard. In this episode, Richard and Kathy Tokach talk about their return to the family’s fourth-generation North Dakota ranch and about all that’s changed in that time. After four decades of marriage — raising three kids on the operation — they now work alongside the next generation as they look to transitions and the future. They share insights on their breeding philosophy, the evolution of their annual bull sale and the opportunities and challenges facing the Angus breed today. They cover technology, serving on industry boards and advice for young couples starting out in the cattle business.  

GUESTS: Richard and Kathy Tokach own and operate Tokach Angus Ranch, which was homesteaded in 1897 by Richard’s great-grandfather. Their present-day herd still traces back to Richard’s dad’s original purchase of a registered heifer from Lyle Dawson of Oak Coulee Ranch in 1955. Richard graduated from North Dakota State University with a degree in animal science, and Kathy earned a nursing degree from the University of North Dakota. Following graduation, they married and made their home on the ranch, raising their children Rebecca, Ben and Renae. They’ve been active in the American Angus Association, the North Dakota Stockmen’s Association, the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association and various local boards, and recently had their 50th Angus production sale.  
 
RELATED CONTENT: True Grit with a Grin 
Tokach Angus Ranch: Seedstock Commitment to Excellence 

Miranda Reiman (00:02):
Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Reiman with my co-host Mark McCully, and we are really not, I wouldn't say at the tail end of sales season yet, Mark, there's still a lot of great bull sales on the calendar, and of course this will air two weeks after we've recorded, but we're getting close to the end of spring sale season and seeing a lot of demand out there for Angus bulls.

Mark McCully (00:25):
Yeah, I think the demand has been incredible, and I know so many of our members have seen that. Different parts of the country, different programs I always say about the diversity of our breed, and yet all of that diversity being met with tremendous amount of buyer acceptance and obviously with prices where they are, we're seeing folks understand that the investment they make in genetics is, that return on investment is there. We were just rolling up some numbers here and just looking at our fiscal year, it starts in October, so this concludes the fall sale season, but we were rolling up some numbers. We've actually seen a $1,300 increase in the average bull sale price reported through our regional managers out covering those sales. It's pretty amazing when you consider, we've even sold about 3,000 more bulls and averaged $1,300 more over last year. But what I found even more amazing is when I looked back on a little more of a little wider lens and went back to 2020, that average bull price is about 75% greater than where we were just five years ago. So some real success and for our breeders selling registered Angus bulls out there, and I know that's fueling a lot of optimism as I talk to folks as they come off their sale, many, many, many having the best sale they've ever had.

Miranda Reiman (01:53):
I'm sure that there's people out there calculating what else has increased in price over that.

Mark McCully (01:58):
Of course.

Miranda Reiman (01:59):
But it is nice to at least know that we're keeping up with or outpacing some of those other increases and hopefully being able to invest back in the operation or see opportunities for young people. That's something that we have heard several guests talk about, I would say in the last year, is the opportunities for young people. And it's something that our guests today talk about as well.

Mark McCully (02:22):
Absolutely love these multi-generational discussions we get to have and a little bit of a look inside a multi-generational operation and how they've transitioned it from Richard and Kathy Tokach that are operating it now and how they're thinking about their kids and even grandkids coming back into their outfit there in North Dakota.

Miranda Reiman (02:45):
I think that we went right to the, what did they call it, like the mecca of Angus in North Dakota or something like that. But good to hear from breeders who have seen it all basically from when they started in the late seventies and early eighties there through today.

(03:04):
Today on the podcast we've headed up to North Dakota where we're talking with Richard and Kathy Tokach and excited to have you guys on. I know we followed your story quite a bit from being 2015 CAB Seedstock Commitment to Excellence award winners, I think is when I first crossed paths with you, but I know your history with Mark goes back before then. So why don't you just start out by telling us a little bit about yourselves, your ranch, anything else you want to add to that introduction? Mark, you probably know some stories.

Mark McCully (03:34):
We'll save the stories for later.

Miranda Reiman (03:37):
Okay, good. Very good.

Richard Tokach (03:38):
Well, as you said, Kathy and I have been married going over 40 years now, I guess, and I guess you want to go way back. The place we're at was homesteaded back in late 18 hundreds. We're the fourth generation on that place. Son would be fifth, and we got a bunch of grandkids running around, which is great to see them every day or whenever they're here. I guess my dad was actually the one who started the seedstock business in 1955. And a little bit of a side story, there is a gentleman from west of us by the name of Lyle Dawson Sr that would go to Chicago every year and buy a pen of bulls and bring 'em back here. He'd keep the one that he wanted and then he would sell the rest to the neighbors. As you well know, Saint Anthony area here. We've got a lot of Angus cattle in this area and I guess I refer to it as the Angus mecca of North Dakota. And as you know, there's quite a few prominent names, but what you probably don't know, there was also a number of smaller breeders that are still in existence and some have gone out of existence over the years. So it was a pretty competitive and still is a pretty competitive area to sell seedstock.

Miranda Reiman (04:48):
Sure. And how did they end up stopping, I guess at that point? The wagon train there deciding to homestead in the great climate you have up there in North Dakota?

Mark McCully (04:58):
It wasn't in February, was it?

Richard Tokach (05:02):
I guess I don't really have an answer for that. I mean this North Dakota is settled in community, so to speak, and this area was all Germans from Russia, so it's a Catholic community. And so that's the way it was settled. We've got, I guess east of us in Napoleon area, they call that iron curtain down there, but they spoke German until they were well, until the probably seventies actually. But anyway, North Dakota is, you go north and there's a Norwegians and it's just the way it happened, I guess.

Miranda Reiman (05:33):
Sure. Where they found a place and you've been there ever since.

Richard Tokach (05:36):
Yes, yes. I think that's probably right. They probably could have done a better job, but I guess we're stuck with it.

Miranda Reiman (05:43):
No, I think I read somewhere that you guys had your first production sale. Was it when you were in high school, maybe a senior in high school?

Richard Tokach (05:50):
That is correct. I was a senior in high school when dad decided to have his very first production sale. And a lot of people don't remember back that far or... that's what happens. You get gray hair, you think about those things, but back then there was very few production sales. Matter of fact, in North Dakota only had a handful. Most bulls were either sold through consignment sales that the breed associations would put together or regional sales, all breed sales so to speak, or private treaty. And there's a number of us that all got started about the same time having production sales at that time. And of course things looked a lot different. 2-year-old bulls is all that was sold back then. And to be quite honest with you, the 2-year-old bulls that we sold as far as weights and stuff were less than what yearlings are today, actually quite a bit less. So the genetics, we're thankful that genetics have progressed quite a bit. And I remember vividly after the sale, people would load up 2-year-old bulls in back of a half ton pickup with stock racks on it and they'd go stop at the bar on the way to town or stuff and there'd be two bulls out in the parking lot and it'd be colder and what out and they were celebrating their purchases for the day. So yeah, things are a lot. I don't think you'd get too many 2-year-old bulls in the back of a pickup nowadays, but

Miranda Reiman (07:14):
Certainly not two of them together.

Richard Tokach (07:16):
Exactly, exactly.

Mark McCully (07:18):
Yeah, I remember you could sell some bulls off the farm and I remember those folks that would pull up in those old rickety stock racks on the back of a pickup and you'd put a bull in there and then you've just got to close your eyes and hopefully make it down the road. So imagine two 2-year-olds in there.

Richard Tokach (07:35):
Exactly.

Miranda Reiman (07:37):
So Kathy, when did you enter the picture then? I guess Richard went to North Dakota State, is that, or are you a hometown girl?

Kathy Tokach (07:44):
I'm a UND girl. I always tell the story. And actually at our wedding dance, of course, he was at AGR and I graduated from UND, I was going into nursing, did the four year degree right away. And some of his friends happened to make the comment, they can't believe Richard married somebody that graduated from UND and I was extremely shy back then. I mean extremely shy. I still am compared to him. But anyway, for some reason I just said, well, I said, Richard graduated from NDSU, which was great, I says, but the one thing he learned, I said he was smart enough that if he married somebody that graduated from UND with a nursing degree, she'd bring home the paycheck every two weeks so he could start ranching and continue ranching because she had that UND education that allowed them to proceed into ranching.

Mark McCully (08:41):
Was that the strategy, Richard?

Richard Tokach (08:43):
That was, might have been part of it. I tell people that ask, I said, well, she was a nice Catholic girl and I married her and it took me a while to get her this way.

Kathy Tokach (08:57):
And actually, I mean I did grow up about 10 miles over the hills from here. So it's not like our families didn't know each other. It wasn't that we dated until, actually we didn't start dating until I did my freshman year at Carroll College in Montana, and then I ended up coming back to UND and finishing the last three years there. So I think he was afraid once I went out to Montana that he better start dating me. But

Mark McCully (09:23):
Don't let you get away. Kathy, when you went to school, obviously had a clear path of, with a nursing degree, Richard, when you went off to NDSU, was the clear path to come back home and run Angus cattle?

Richard Tokach (09:38):
Yes, Mark, at least that was my mind. Obviously I grew up here and that was my career path to be honest with you. I had some thoughts maybe here or there, but back then I graduated in 1979 and as you well know, the eighties were tough. I mean they really were. So I graduated and you hear people say you didn't know any better. We didn't know any better, we just did it. But to be honest with you, I was one of the very few at my graduating class out of college that returned home. I had an opportunity here or we needed to labor, put it that way. Most of my fellow classmates took jobs elsewhere, either ag teachers or bankers, or hate to say this, but if they couldn't find a job, they went to grad school. So I mean, it was pretty tough. And again, Kathy and I started out and we really didn't have much and most people starting out and Kathy's job helped us a lot and everything that we were able to make off the ranch, we just poured back into it.

Kathy Tokach (10:39):
And then actually one of his supplemental jobs that he did do is he would clip cattle. And actually he always had to clip Denver. He always wanted to be hired, so he'd go down there at least that he told me in our early years of marriage, just that he made good money. Well, the first time I, well, I guess I did go, that was our honeymoon. We went to Denver. He didn't clip that year. That was the one year he didn't clip. But I kind of realized why he wanted to go to Denver every year.

Miranda Reiman (11:06):
I think Mark May have told some similar stories to Gerry over the years. Right, Mark?

Mark McCully (11:10):
Yeah, I just got to go make some money. No fun was had at all, ever

Miranda Reiman (11:17):
That's great.

Mark McCully (11:18):
So Richard, you're an old show jock. See, I learned so much.

Miranda Reiman (11:21):
I can't picture that about you

Mark McCully (11:23):
I just didn't know that.

Richard Tokach (11:25):
I'm not so sure you'd call it a show jock, but I did pay through most of my college by clipping cattle. And of course, as we all know, it's a different clipping cattle for sales versus show ring, so to speak. But anyway, to be honest with you, even at my quite advanced age, I still enjoy, we still do clip our own cattle for the sale and people look at me and shake their heads, but I still enjoy it.

Miranda Reiman (11:51):
Yeah, you're supposed to find somebody with better knees at this point, aren't you?

Richard Tokach (11:55):
Yeah. But things are easier nowadays, now we torch 'em obviously, and things have progressed.

Miranda Reiman (12:01):
Sure. So get us caught up maybe a little bit to present day. So you guys have three kids and Ben's back on the ranch. Just give us kind of the update from honeymoon in Denver to today.

Richard Tokach (12:13):
Well, our oldest daughter, Rebecca and her husband and their three boys are down in Kansas and she works for Cargill, has been in Kansas now for several years, and she went to school at K State and graduated out of there and went to get her PhD. Second child is Ben, he's at home with us and he was married Natalie. They also have three boys, and Natalie helps out here quite a bit when she can. Our youngest daughter is Renae and she just had her second boy. So we've got eight grandsons and I take full credit for having all the boys, I guess.

Miranda Reiman (12:56):
Very good. The Tokach name will live on

Richard Tokach (12:59):
In some ways. Yeah.

Mark McCully (13:01):
So this next generation coming back to the ranch, I think is maybe one of the most popular conversations that I get in as I talk to our members and they're wanting to have maybe a similar situation as what you've got with Ben coming back. Talk a little bit about that. What are some of the keys of success? Is it an expansion of the operation to make room? What's the game plan there?

Richard Tokach (13:26):
Well, and I skipped over. Thank you, Mark. Kind of skipped over a little bit. Mark, Ben also went to K State. All our kids went to K State I guess. And then one day he called and I had made it clear to him in our conversations that if he wanted to come back we would make it possible. We didn't know how, but we would make that possible. So then one evening Kathy and I were sitting around the table eating supper about nine o'clock, whatever it was, and he get a phone call from Ben and he said, if you want to know if he'd still be all right if he came back. And I said, well, yeah, we'll make it work. And that was the end of the conversation. And Kathy asked, well, who called? And it was Ben, what did he want? He said he wants to come back. And she says, well, that good or bad? And I said, I'm not sure

(14:16):
But be honest to you, it's worked out very well. His wife also went to K State, but she's a local girl, just grew up down the road a few miles. And so there's certainly a lot of ties to the community in this area. Like I said, it's been working out really well. We are working right now on trying to get more of the cattle. He's always had a few cattle, he's always bought a few cattle. We started out on a wage, now it's more of a partnership or a share type of deal. And we're working right now, I'll be honest with you, on trying to get that a little more solidified. It's still hard for me to say it to be honest with, but it's time for him to take over more monitored responsibilities. And I feel I still enjoy getting up every day. I still enjoy getting out there and working every day, but sometimes, and I was in his shoes and sometimes it's hard, but sometimes you just got to step away a little bit. And I'm involved in a lot of organizations and activities over the years and that's good. It makes him make those decisions when I'm not here. And he does. He takes over more management every year and I think that's great. We're looking forward to it, put it that way.

Mark McCully (15:25):
That's awesome. So do you kind of establish defined roles? I'm always kind of curious about this. And again, I know this is a conversation that a lot of maybe some things families grapple with a little of. How do you do that? Do you define like, Hey, you're going to take over the farming part and we're going to take over, or the genetics part or the marketing part, or is there defined roles or is it just kind what needs to be done? You jump in and do it?

Richard Tokach (15:47):
Well, Mark, it's kind of as things progressed, as I said, Ben's taken over more and more. He's taken over more of the marketing side and stuff, talking to customers. And it's hard for me to let go of some of those things, but at the same time, it's beneficial to us because seeing a younger group of customers show up at our sales, and I think that's exciting. If nothing else. And he is, I mean as far as some of the decisions or more of the decisions I should say around the ranch on a day-to-day basis, honestly, I leave a lot of things up to him and of course I oversee it, but Kathy might say I'm a control freak, and I am not sure I agree with that, but

Miranda Reiman (16:30):
She's laughing

Richard Tokach (16:32):
I'm working real hard on trying to give him more responsibility and he's willing to accept it. So again, like I say, sometimes you just got to get out the way, and that's hard sometimes. But I'm working at it very, very much.

Kathy Tokach (16:46):
And that was one of the first things Ben wanted to try this or do this and Richard said, oh, that's not going to work. And I said, how do you know? We've done it this way for 52 years or whatever, just let it go. And it's still one of the things that it's not quite so bad anymore, but when we're sorting calves or cattle through our one pen set up, there used to be a yellow gate, an orange gate and a green gate. And okay, now these grandsons are helping, all the gates are green, but they say green gate or orange gate, orange gate. It's like there is no orange gate, Grandpa. So it's some of those traditions that, and like I said, the grandsons are nine, are going to be 10 now. So in the last couple of years they've learned to use up, down or side, which works much better than

Richard Tokach (17:41):
Getting back to a little more on point with Mark's question in the summertime. Ben pretty well takes over all the management of the cow herd down on grass and rotation wise and checking them and stuff like that. And that's fine. And we're spread out over about 70 miles. So sometimes it takes a day just to check and we don't check them all every day, obviously. But I mean it just takes time. So

Miranda Reiman (18:07):
Absolutely. You mentioned some of those leadership roles and maybe that gave you the opportunity to do some of those. I don't know what the timeline was when Ben came back versus your time on the board. Maybe talk about that a little bit. The reason that you didn't, you're saying you're shaking your head, Kathy, that was, I mean Kathy did all the chores. Well, Richard,

Richard Tokach (18:31):
But I had the opportunity way back the North Dakota Angus Association way back when we had a really great group of people and there still are nice good people on the board even today. But I guess that was my first real big

Mark McCully (18:45):
I believe Kathy's president of the board today, right?

Richard Tokach (18:47):
Yes, she is.

Mark McCully (18:47):
She's just helping you out of that just a little.

Richard Tokach (18:54):
But we did, we started the bull test way back then at that point in time and we put together the Foundation, the North Dakota Angus Foundation back in those days. And we've had, I said there's been some great people over the years and still are on the board, but that was a start. I've served on a lot of local stuff here and North Dakota Stockmans Association and the connections, NCBA, so I certainly, opportunity to be exposed to a lot of great leaders, obviously of course the Angus Association Board and got to meet equally great, and broaden my knowledge obviously of what inner workings of Angus are and how things are done, which has been extremely beneficial and again, met some great people. And so yeah, now got one state board and one local board. So I stepped away from a lot of those or retired out of a lot of those and found some more opportunities and I think that's in a way that's good for myself maybe. So I get away from here a little bit more. So no, I enjoy outside boards, I really do.

Miranda Reiman (20:01):
Do you think there are things that you learned during your time on any of those that you brought back and implemented new things on the ranch or tried new ideas because you'd heard from a fellow board member, or things like that? I mean,

Richard Tokach (20:13):
Boy, Miranda, there'd be so many of 'em that I wouldn't know where to start.

(20:18):
Anything from synchronization protocols, bulls to use, bulls not to use, just in general management, things that worked. It might be something in machinery, you know how it is. You always get your best ideas about two in the morning at a bar somewhere, but

Miranda Reiman (20:35):
You too?

Richard Tokach (20:39):
But the barriers come off, so to speak. And I've had some good, you brought up earlier about transitions and I've had some really good conversations with knowledgeable people about transitions and at some of these events and one of the issues that we had, Kathy and I, when we talk about transitions, where do you go? Who do you talk to? It's not like there's a shingle on a wall so to speak, especially up here. There's a lot of lawyers, but that doesn't mean any of 'em are any good. So anyway, but I think the exposure to other ideas, other methods of doing things, just different scenarios, is extremely beneficial to us.

Kathy Tokach (21:25):
And I think the one thing we found is, yeah, there's the estate planner, there's the transition, but they aren't ranch orientated enough in our area to understand it's not the same as a basic business. The ranch is a little different.

Miranda Reiman (21:42):
Your assets are aligned,

Kathy Tokach (21:44):
Right? And just how do you get past this from that? And things are a lot different than just a business structure. And that's the problem we dealt with and actually we're talking with some Angus friends that's kind of helped us find somebody that we could go towards to look for some guidance. And so we appreciate those Angus friends because they do provide some good knowledge.

Mark McCully (22:09):
Richard, when you think back on your time on the board, maybe give us a little taste of some of the things that the board was thinking about at that point and maybe as you reflect back on that time, some of the things that maybe you're most proud of and things that you go, wow, we sure glad we did the things we did, and maybe with that advantage of 2020 hindsight, I guess.

Richard Tokach (22:31):
Well, certainly a lot of things that are memorable, at least in my mind, the very first meeting I went to, Dick Spader had passed away and we had to hire a new CEO and things were up in the air and the staff was running around like ... crazy and everything was, of course, I didn't know anybody. I'd never been in the building before. I knew some of them board members and tell the story or not, but I will. But I finally had to ask somebody at noon, well, where's the bathrooms at? Because I had no clue. But we know it was a good meeting. We hired John Crouch, and I believe that was certainly the best thing that happened for quite a few years. Of course, most of you know I'm more, I shouldn't say a numbers guy, but I certainly enjoy the performance side of it and that portion of the board.

(23:22):
And we started it with the dollar values back then it was $W. Of course I was, happened to be in charge of breed improvement there for quite a number of years, and we started with the dollar values back then. Of course there was a lot of controversy back then on what we're going to do as far as looking at doing some work for some other breeds back then, of course, my last year. And there was a lot of things in between. We switched chairs, so to speak, for CAB, that happened during my term on the board. Perhaps the most long lasting thing was something that happened at one of my last meetings is when the concept of AGI was started. And I think that was perhaps certainly memorable. We hired, Foundation really took off about the same time, trying to give them their own autonomy, so to speak and take off. So yeah, there was quite a number of things that, how it is that kind of happened while we were there. Of course, we hired Sally Northcutt at that time also, and that just led into more in-house predictions and of course that allow us to go with AGI. Otherwise we wouldn't have be able to do that.

Miranda Reiman (24:41):
We just had the opportunity to recognize Bill and Sally with the Angus Heritage Award back in November and learning about that story, it was kind of like, wow, there were some pretty rapid improvements or rapid changes in the business going on at that time. I mean, you mentioned the dollar indexes, I think that was, you were probably around then for the start of AngusSource maybe too?

Richard Tokach (25:07):
I think that came after I was there

Miranda Reiman (25:08):
Right after you. OK. But I mean just between bringing the genetic valuation in house, that was kind of a big scary decision for your board and

Richard Tokach (25:15):
Yes, it was, you know it was the right thing to do. And we had, like you said, we had complete, at least I did anyway, we had complete confidence in staff. What they were telling us was right as far as Sally and Bill and that we could do this. And of course we got to remember Lou Ann Adams was there long before I was, but I mean she's certainly a genius also like the rest of them. And without her and her contributions, I don't think a lot of this would've happened.

Mark McCully (25:41):
Yeah, amen. No, that's great. No, those were, so I started at CAB in 2000, and so I would've probably just started, I wasn't at all the board meetings, Richard, but I would've been at a big chunk of them. And one of the things I always admired about you in the boardroom was you really had a really very pragmatic and practical approach to decisions. And I know you were always very well respected by the other board members of what you had to say and your perspective and always just really appreciated your leadership in the boardroom, Richard. So thank you for that.

Richard Tokach (26:18):
Well, sometimes you just say it and then you worry about what you said later, but

Miranda Reiman (26:25):
I knew there was a reason I liked you,

Mark McCully (26:26):
Happy, smiling and nodding.

Miranda Reiman (26:27):
You can identify with that

Richard Tokach (26:32):
But up here, maybe it's a product of your upbringing or north country, but it's the way it is. You say it and you discuss things in board meetings and you walk out the door and you're best friends, and you help each other out as much as you can whenever you can and you're competitors. But at the same time, at the end of the day, you get together and you go have a drink afterwards. That's just, I guess that's the way we were brought up.

Mark McCully (26:59):
Yeah, no, absolutely. Kathy, the leadership hats have not solely sat with Richard. You have worn a lot of 'em as well. I think currently the president of the North Dakota Angus Association, do I have that right?

Kathy Tokach (27:11):
Yes. Yeah, I guess for me, I needed to stay home, raise the kids, work my career as a nurse back in those early years while he was able to go off and do his thing, which actually it worked out okay for us. I mean, that wasn't always ideal. No, but it's what we chose to do and how we chose to do it and stuff. And I was fine with that. I mean, like I said, I was quite shy coming into this ranch, so I have grown a lot and then I've had opportunities along the years too to get to different places and stuff. For me, it's okay to be doing it now. Actually the year I went to YCC, there's kind of an age limit on that. Supposedly I was at the upper end, but that year I was not the oldest on the tour. It was kind of interesting. There was about a handful of us that were at the upper end of what YCC should be, but it was a great experience and for me to have done 10 years earlier, probably wouldn't have worked because I was, still had kids that I needed to be there, be available for with my still working as a nurse and stuff. It just time-wise work as well as when I was a couple years older than when Richard did it.

Miranda Reiman (28:25):
I'm sure there are a lot of other ranch wives that are nodding along in agreement and shaking their head. I've got a good friend whose mother-in-law told her, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time. So I really appreciate that perspective that you can wait and the opportunities will still come. So that's cool. We're going to take a quick timeout for a word from Angus Media.

(28:49):
To make good decisions, you must be informed. At the Angus Journal, we have you covered. Subscribe to our monthly magazine to be part of the direction of the Association ,and influence decisions that will affect your business. For just $50 a year, you get a high-quality publication filled with good cattle and stories of good people delivered each month. Change is inevitable, don't get left behind. Visit angusjournal.net to subscribe today.

(29:19):
Now let's pick up right where we left off. Richard, you talked earlier that you're a numbers guy, so I want to get into a little bit of how you go about selecting your cattle, what your breeding philosophies are, how you hit those goals. So my guess is you're not just picking 'em out on paper, so give us the kind of, how you approach those decisions.

Richard Tokach (29:38):
Well, I think you got to go back and realize we've had a sale now, this is our 50th annual sale, so you have to pay attention to what your customers want. Obviously in this area we've got a diverse clientele anywhere from people that want calving-ease bulls, bulls, people that want some some performance bulls. We sell a number of bulls over to Minnesota, and to be quite honest with you, their number one criteria is docility, and they're smaller herds. And I certainly understand that. So I mean I think you've got to have a balanced philosophy when you go into these things. I'm certainly not going to go to, stack 1% on top of 1%. That's never been my thought process. But to drill a little bit deeper, we try to keep low to moderate birth weight in mind, realizing that probably 60, 70% of our bulls that we sell go to breed first-calf heifer calves, and they like to use them, year or two before they move on to cows.

(30:35):
So those bulls, although they are low to moderate birth weights, they've got to have enough performance in 'em to push the scales down, so to speak. And about half of our customers will background their calves. So they're going to want something that's going to gain in the feedlot, also. Again, I mentioned docility. Nobody wants a wild bull. I don't care who you are. So that's always in the back of your mind as they go. We've got better tools than what we've had in the past. In the past we really didn't have, it's been a number of years, we didn't have carcass values and we certainly do now. Quite honestly, you, there's a number of our customers that look at those hard. There's a number of section of 'em that do not, but I think at least from my mind, as seedstock producers, we've got to make sure those cattle will keep 'em out of the ditches, so to speak.

(31:21):
And so I pay a huge attention to carcass values, try to keep 'em to upper 25% in that range, at least for my thought. And in the back you talk about all this stuff and all these numbers and stuff, but again, if they don't make a mother cow, if they don't make a replacement heifer for these guys, because all these guys, I should say that all, but 95% of these guys keep their, and ladies, they keep their heifers calves back and want to use them. And it varies from western North Dakota, western Minnesota, as far as east and west goes and north and south, even here in Dakotas, what the criteria are, what they want, but they've got to make a mother cow. And we run ours I guess I consider fairly tough. I mean, we kick 'em out and they're gone. And if they have a problem anywhere at all, open or bad foot or udder or whatever, they're gone. And one of my favorite sayings that I use, they always have new ones. The cows always have new ones. So Dakotas for the most part, we sell a lot of heifers out of the Dakotas going a lot of different directions. North Dakota is a heifer export state, so to speak. So yeah, you take all those numbers that we just talked about that we look for, but they still got to make cows. I think that criteria calling and also plays a huge factor into that.

Mark McCully (32:52):
You're primarily spring calving, correct?

Richard Tokach (32:54):
Yes, we're completely spring calving,

Mark McCully (32:56):
Yes. And then sell yearling bulls.

Richard Tokach (32:58):
We'll sell yearling bulls. We used to sell as, kind of go way back twos and kind of transitioned into half and half. And of course I won't raise a 2-year-old bull anymore. They're too tough on everybody and themselves too. But no, we're all, we sell spring bulls and we'll sell a large group of commercial heifers or semi large group commercial heifers and purebred heifers. And to be honest with you, we kind of hung our hats pretty hard on the commercial heifers. They'll sell really well every year and we're pretty proud of that group of heifers. Yeah.

Mark McCully (33:32):
Are those heifers you raise or are those customers heifers that you bring back in and develop

Richard Tokach (33:38):
All the heifers, everything we raise here on the place, everything's fed here. They are registered heifers. We just pull the papers and they would be actually the younger end of our previous year's calf crop is what they are. Of course they're all AI'ed and stuff and we've been fortunate on that portion. It's always been quite the highlight of our sales over the years.

Miranda Reiman (34:01):
Are you guys still feeding calves? I know about a decade ago you were still sending some to Bellers at the time. I don't know if that's something you guys have kept up or,

Richard Tokach (34:11):
We had a really good relationship with Terry Beller, and he bought ours private treaty and fed him quite a few years there until he exited the business. So actually the last few years we have not gone any further than a lot of the cattle obviously end up being bulls, and we're always in expansion phase of somewhat or another. And we're kind of back up to our numbers where we needed to be. And so this past year we had a few more, and again, we're in expansion phase again. So I guess I always said if you're not growing, you're going backwards.

Miranda Reiman (34:46):
Absolutely. Yeah. Is there things that you learned from that? I mean, did he share carcass data back with you, or was that relationship helpful in just even developing, figuring out what your end product was I guess?

Richard Tokach (34:59):
Terry was very good to us. He let us, and of course way back when he was a feedlot partner, if I remember correctly, Mark, you would know. But he certainly shared with us how those cattle did. And I don't have the numbers off the top of my head. I know we used to put in the book bragging about how those cattle did, but there was like 90% in the 90 percentiles Choice and Primes a number of years ago. And we've certainly continued and put even more emphasis on the carcass traits than we even did back then. But yeah, I think again, it was a good relationship that we enjoyed.

Mark McCully (35:42):
Talk about, you celebrated your 50th anniversary bull sale, first, congratulations. That's quite an incredible feat. Will you talk about how your sale has changed, how your approach to the sale has changed? Obviously you are using internet auctions and video and things like that, so technology has been introduced, but maybe is there anything from a philosophy of how you sell bulls and how the sales, the whole merchandising platforms have changed over that time?

Richard Tokach (36:11):
I think there's been a lot of differences or changes, I should say Mark. I mean, as you said, we had 2-year-old bulls and believe, of course back then we didn't know any better. These bulls are covered with... and we would haul 'em to town and wash 'em in January. Well, you know how that worked in North Dakota. So that changed. But facilities and getting in to town even there was no stock trailers, there was no semis. I mean, and I've had the sale at Kist Livestock, they've been really good to us and over the years, so we're be honest with you, we were the very first purebred production sale held at Kist. And of course there's many, many more since that period of time. They were held in another location prior to that. But even for ours, of course the bulls have changed immensely. Things of course, field staff have changed over the years.

(37:08):
We've always been fortunate to have some really good regional managers here. We've been blessed. We got a great one. Now again, as far as customer base, yeah, we've expanded from what we started, we had to because we had more bulls there all those years. It is kind of neat to see some of the third generation on the seats. There was certainly a lot of first generation, a number of second generation and even a handful of third generation people on the seats. And that means a lot to us obviously. And you brought up about marketing of course, and Kathy had the opportunity to go back and look at some of our very first sale catalogs and we just laugh and giggle at 'em because they were ugly. They were ugly and we've done a lot better job. We've hired a ... lady to help us design things and put our ads together so we're not quite so backwards.

(38:05):
And then you brought up the internet deal and we were one of the first ones to go on DV Auction and, quite a blessing for us. We will sell, I think this year we had 38 different buyers off the internet and we've kind of known up in this area to have some ugly sale days. This year was 28 below sale morning and it was stiff. We've had blizzards and ugly weather. So yeah, the internet has changed our marketing immensely as well. It has obviously a lot of other ways to market cattle and so that's great. Technology I think is huge and I think we need to continue to embrace it.

Mark McCully (38:48):
So have you had to postpone a sale?

Miranda Reiman (38:51):
I just going to ask if that changed your decision

Mark McCully (38:53):
In February in North Dakota? I would think the risk is high. We never have, and I guess we've been lucky.

Miranda Reiman (39:00):
Go buy a lottery ticket, man.

Kathy Tokach (39:01):
We've had morning discussions. There was 5:00 AM, 6:00 AM discussions, and since the cattle are already in town, our auctioneer probably was already in town. That's some of the logistics that we've always had to deal with too. But there's been mornings of discussions, at least a handful.

Richard Tokach (39:21):
The worst one I can remember, it was 28 below. We can handle that. It wasn't blowing, that's no big deal. But the worst, I remember when I was, before Kathy and I were married and of course dad was still running things and me and dad were in town with the sale barn owners and we're looking out in the parking lot at Kist and Mark, I dunno if you've been there or not, but anyway, looking out in the parking lot to get these huge windows and you couldn't see anything. I mean it was just blowing and blizzarding like crazy. And staff there, owners want to know, if we're going to continue with it. Dad said, yeah. And then we went home and we got some other younger brothers obviously, and dad got them a hotel room in town and said, well, we can't make it, you guys have the sale. So anyway, we went home and of course back then we weren't set up near as well. I think every waterer in the place was froze. We had to thaw out that night and the next morning the wind stopped and the snow stopped. And I don't remember what the average was, but it was a good sale. So yeah, I hope you don't jinx me, Mark.

(40:25):
And now I'll be honest with you, the way the internet is set up nowadays, it isn't near as critical that people are on the seats and videos have played a huge part of it. They can look at these cattle at home, bid from the comfort of their home. So yeah, it's taking some of the pressure off so to speak,

Kathy Tokach (40:44):
And just a story with that technology. A few years ago, a dad and his son had came and looked at the cattle in town on Sunday or whatever, and then lo and behold, on Monday at the end of the sale, Richard noticed that they had purchased a bull, but they weren't at the sale here. The son from his dorm room at the University of Mary purchased the bull that they had checked the day before. So technology is great. I mean the dad couldn't be down, the kid was in school, but they still purchased a bull. So that's why we strongly believe in the importance of the technology.

Mark McCully (41:18):
Well, and just from a pure risk management standpoint, I mean I think about the stress that's on an operation when the percent of your revenue to the operation is on one given day, to be able to take away some of that risk by having technology and the videos and online bidding is enormous. And then I think sometimes we forget about how valuable that is and not that there's no risk, but

Richard Tokach (41:44):
I think you get used to it. I guess I was never have been extremely nervous. I kind of had an idea for the most part what was going to happen just because of phone calls and this and that. We knew we had a lot of repeat customers every year. My dad would get extremely nervous. He wouldn't sleep for days even after he had fully retired. He was, still couldn't sleep, just worried.

Miranda Reiman (42:08):
He was nervous enough for both of you.

Richard Tokach (42:10):
Exactly. You're probably right Miranda, but it's a day and it's our big sale day or big income like you said, Mark. But if you do things and you get 'em lined up and hopefully there'll certainly be a few surprises and there always are, but things kind of fall into place and I said, you got to thank your customers that support us over all the years and great personnel we work with. I know one year we always, last few years we've used Roger Jacobs and he couldn't get out of Billings because of a storm, he was going to have his nephew cover for us for him, I should say. And that would've been fine, Greg, and Greg got food poisoning, so he couldn't be there that day. Jake and I didn't know part of this at that time. Roger decided the day got clear enough, he got on plane and got out of Billings, one of Joe's planes, and he got to the sale and we were about five minutes late. He just got a ride over to the sale barn from field staff and walked up on the block and we had a nice sale. That was probably the closest call so to speak. But the field staff and the auctioneer pretty well took care of things. And I found out about it about an hour before the sale, what was going on, and I said, well, that's fine. Whatever works, works. And it was fine. It was good.

Miranda Reiman (43:35):
Oh, that's dedication.

Mark McCully (43:38):
Maybe you think about your operation and the fundamentals and your breeding philosophy. Are there some changes that you've made over the years that you breed maybe Angus cattle a little differently or have you stayed pretty consistent and tried and true with the kind of Angus cattle you're wanting to produce?

Richard Tokach (44:00):
Well, that's a good question, Mark. One of the things I've always believed in is having larger contemporary groups from a sires, what I should say, we pretty well limit the number of bulls that we'll use. Five or six bulls is probably their max in each the year we will, I guess I won't use a bull minimum use I'll use on a bull is 80 straws. I like to use a hundred and up and try to keep the numbers or the progeny fairly similar. When I do that, then I also breed all the half sisters the same way, so I can make as many three quarters as possible. And even at that, we'll use any bull that we decide to use at least two years, most of three years. And it seems to work really well for us. We'll use a particular bull four years before we move on.

(44:53):
So we'll try to again, try to keep as many, we talk about females, but we try to keep as many three quarter sisters or half sisters as possible. And I guess that's my thought process behind bull selection. As I say that, again, we got to keep in mind what our customers are wanting and to drill a little bit deeper, of course here I call 'em low to moderate birth weights. If we can keep 'em between that zero and three for birth EPD, I think that fits us best. I know a number of years ago we got carried away on breeding perhaps too small of birth weights and we had a lot of 60 pounders. And I'll tell you what, a lot of 60 pounders in North Dakota don't work all that well. So we put a little bit more, didn't go quite so extreme, so to speak on birth.

(45:43):
I think there's ideal in any trait that you need to fit. So I mean we're kind of held in that for quite a few years as the tools that Angus Association has developed for us have gotten better and expanded repertoire. Of course we put more emphasis on all of 'em. We talked about carcass earlier, now we've come, feet and legs is huge and certainly would never give up knowingly make a mistake that way. I think that's certainly going to hurt you. The feet and udder scores that you guys are putting on now, and of course the DNA technology I think is absolutely wonderful. So I think we're making them a lot more predictable and I think that's what your customers, at least in my mind anyway, customers come back to you for several reasons. First of all, they trust you. If they don't trust you, they're not coming back.

(46:34):
You've got to stand behind your product and what you produce, has to be predictable, what you say it's going to be, and they buy it with that in mind. You may not agree with their choice, but if they buy it with that in mind and it's predictable, they're happy. And I think the tools Angus Association has put together, it has made that a lot easier on our part, put it that way. So yeah, I mean our philosophy as far as they got to work out in this country, we don't creep feed anything. So whatever they bring home in the fall, that's what they bring home. We call, like I said, for a lot of different reasons, if they're stupid, whatever, they're gone. But I mean at the same time, the same philosophy, they've got to work in this country.

Mark McCully (47:14):
You mentioned birth weight. You've never hit me as a guy that chases fads or flashes in the pan, but have there been any times where you've gotten a little too far? You mentioned calving ease maybe went a little too far. Has there ever been a time or do you stay pretty disciplined and able to keep it between the lines?

Richard Tokach (47:32):
Well, as I said, we sell a lot of bulls for heifer projects and stuff, and we kind of hang our hats on low birth weight source here in North Dakota. And for the most part we are. But like I said, we probably did go too far. Matter of fact, I know we did just stacking low birth weights, right now, I don't really care if, I really don't have much use for a minus birth weight bull to be honest with you because I know what can happen and these guys and things have changed here in the Dakotas, probably across the country. But as these cattle have gotten better and performance has gotten better, a lot of these guys have gone, and less labor. A lot of these guys have gone to April calvers and you can get by with that 60 pounder in April and May, but you can't do that in February.

(48:21):
You can't do that in March for the most part, they just need more body mass. It's hard to generate that much. I learned this, we had an opportunity to sell a lot of bulls in Russia a number of years back, and I had the opportunity to go over there and visit. And it's cold over there too, obviously. And they're about the same parallel or I should say, as we are. So I mean what we'll find out that these cattle got to have some body mass to survive the cold, generate enough heat. So yeah, I think we've kind of backed away from those minus birth weight bulls and try to keep 'em from zero to three at least in our operation.

Mark McCully (48:59):
Did you think about the breed today, guys? What are you most excited about? Maybe what's your take on where we're at as an Angus breed and where we need to be paying attention down the road?

Richard Tokach (49:10):
I think there's a lot of opportunities out there, Mark. I mean the tools that we've got, the personnel that we've got as an Association, predictability that we've got, the markets that are out there, I think there's tremendous amount of opportunities, particularly not only in the beef industry period, but particularly in the Angus business. I think if we continue to develop the tools and put 'em out there. Now that doesn't mean you have to use every one of them. Maybe there's some tools out there that don't fit you. I like to say I like to use every tool in a toolbox, but sometimes there's tools in my toolbox that I don't really need. And that's fine because somebody else certainly does need 'em. And there's some traits that are out there that, like I said, I maybe don't pay as much attention to as some others, and that's okay.

(49:59):
But I think the tools that are out there and the opportunities that the Angus breed right now, we've got some in our country up here, we've got some other competition. Obviously they're not all Angus, but you go to the sale barn or you watch sale barn videos, first of all, they got to be black solid black obviously, and they got to have some stretch in 'em, some frame on them. So these feeders will take them and they'll top the market every time. And then if you sit back and you watch some of these colored, so to speak, cattle come in that aren't solid black, boy, do they take a beating? I mean, wow. I mean it's 20 cents back. And sometimes producers, commercial producers, it doesn't take 'em long to realize that I got to do something different this last number of years. I'll be quite frank with you, that we've had a lot of red people that came and then started buying bulls because the discounts are seen on those cattle and it's huge.

(51:03):
They can't afford to raise 'em anymore. So I mean, I don't want to be despairing different breeds, but I think there's some huge differences out there in the marketplace. Hopefully Angus can continue to capitalize on those trends and even make 'em better. I think we've, we have such a large percentage of the cow herd at the present time, and I certainly understand cross-breeding and how that all works, but at the same time, I had, one guy told me that he said, I can't afford to have 'em because I'm taking such a beating at the sale barn. So every operation is different. Like I said, I think there's a lot of tremendous opportunity out there, especially for the young people. I think the young people right now, like I said, when I got out of school it was depression as far as the farm economy. Right now, if you got the wherewithal so to speak, or you do the hard work and you know how to manage cattle or learn how to do it, know a little bit about finances and want to take the risk, there's tremendous opportunity. It's just unbelievable how much opportunity, at least that's the way I see it.

Miranda Reiman (52:16):
Yeah. You talk about the opportunity on a broad scale, but if any of those grandkids come back and they're managing the operation and they're in the place you are today, so when your grandkids are grandparents, what do you think your ranch will look like or what's your hope for what the ranch looks like?

Richard Tokach (52:35):
Well, quite honestly, that's not for me to decide, but I think branches continue to get bigger hope. Hope we're still in the seedstock business, but that's again, not for me to decide. It's for them to decide, it'll look different. I think we'll be a, machinery will be certainly be different, technologies that'll be big different. I think there'll still be some manual labor obviously, but I mean we'll automate things as much as possible if you're going to look down 50 years down the road, whatever it'll be. But I think all the ranches will continue to expand. I don't see how that cannot, I think economic pressures will continue along those lines.

Kathy Tokach (53:17):
And with our grandsons, they are obviously they're fun, but there is one that unfortunately kind of is a lot like papa in some ways, so that kind of scares me a little bit because they believe in

Miranda Reiman (53:32):
Reading the past?

Kathy Tokach (53:35):
They kind of believe what Papa says and sometimes that's kind of scary, but they want to wear the snap shirt that Papa does. And so when you look at that future, you think, okay, so maybe some of the things he does isn't so bad, but they're young boys. Young kids yet. But they do have a good work ethic already, so we're excited about that.

Miranda Reiman (53:58):
Yeah, that's super fun to have them grow up so close and yeah, that's really neat. Well, I guess we always end on a random question of the week. So before I jump right to that, is there anything else that you guys wanted to add that we haven't asked you about?

Richard Tokach (54:12):
I guess the only I would add would be that how thankful and appreciative we are to all the staff at Angus Association. As I said earlier, we've had some great regional managers over the years here on a local level. We have a great young person now that just got hired and I think he's going to do a tremendous job. I had opportunity to see the inside workings of what happens in St. Joe. And I think there's some, were and still are some extremely talented people there, very thankful for that. You got the different divisions from the Angus Foundation where Milford used to be there and Jaclyn is now. And I think that's super for our youth and leadership abilities down the road, of course the AGI and all the things that they do there. And obviously Angus Media and of course we can't forget Wooster and all the work that John Stika and all his staff do there. And quite honestly, I don't think the Angus breed. I shouldn't say, I think the Angus breed wouldn't be where it is today without all the dedicated people at the Association and all the entities. And I know, I think Mark can attest to this, sometimes Association of work isn't for the faint of heart, but at least from my standpoint, I certainly appreciate every one of them.

Miranda Reiman (55:27):
Thank you. We appreciate that and we'll share that back with the staff, but just know that a definite majority opinion around here is that we love working for the breeders too, so it's a two-way street.

Mark McCully (55:38):
Absolutely.

Miranda Reiman (55:39):
Okay, so the random question of the week, you said you've been married for four decades. If you could go back and give yourself, as you're entering into this union some advice, what would you say about being married to a rancher or a ranch wife or being in business together? What advice would you give your young selves?

Kathy Tokach (56:02):
You guys know Richard. I guess the thing is, and for us, for our situation, yeah, it's great for those young couples if they can from the start, be together on the ranch, but for us it really made a big difference bringing in that second income and I was very fortunate. Of course, I loved being a registered nurse. I mean, it was great, but I was fortunate with my job. If they needed help on Wednesday, I could work somebody's Saturday and they would gladly pick up my Wednesday. So compromise is probably the thing I'm getting at is you need to realize compromise is important and sometimes one of you, I mean, yeah, I'd work my 12 hour shifts and come home and put in another eight hours type of thing, helping with whatever is Sometimes it's not a 50-50. I mean, that's really not what relationships are about. Yeah, I'd like to have it more on my side sometimes, but I was young, I was able to do it and for our situation it was kind of critical. I mean, it really was. So for young couples to think that it's all going to be fun. Yeah, appreciate those good times, but realize that there's some tough days to get you to those good days and just work at it. You got to work at it.

Richard Tokach (57:20):
Yeah. The only thing, I guess I probably wouldn't change anything, to be honest with you. I think any advice I could offer to a young couple starting out is work hard. It's not going to come all at once. It takes years and years and years to get somewhere where you feel accomplished. But if you continue to put your nose to grindstone, so to speak, and make the right decisions and work hard at it and take advantage of the opportunities that are out there, I think that's the biggest thing. If someone asks you to serve on a board and you can't do it, local communities need that. If your neighbor comes up to you and says, I'd like to rent you this pasture, or whatever it is, and you think to yourself, gosh, I got too much work. I can't do this, I can't do that, don't do that way. I mean, just do it and figure it out. So take advantage of the opportunity to stay involved your community, and pick a good wife.

Miranda Reiman (58:15):
That's great advice right there. Yeah, I think that's kind of the root of a lot of happiness or misery. Right?

Mark McCully (58:23):
And Richard, you out-punted your coverage as we say, well done. You took your advice there for sure. We appreciate you guys coming on, and sharing, I've had the great pleasure of being around you guys for a while. I know you're an incredible team, so I'll just let you know you're one of those couples I think about when we think about the decisions of the American Angus Association and I think about how does this impact Richard and Kathy and I really do, and so I appreciate all what you guys do and your leadership in this breed and coming on and sharing some fantastic wisdom with us here today. Thank you guys.

Miranda Reiman (59:02):
I really enjoy hearing from ranchers who've been there and done that. If you have any suggestions for future guests, we've got a few remaining spots here on this season of the Angus conversation. Go to www.theangusconversation.com, scroll nearly to the bottom and click "Suggest a topic" or go ahead and drop Mark or I an email. We'd really like to know who you would like to hear from. And while you're there, you can catch up on past episodes or see pictures and any links or extras from each of those. As always, thanks for listening. This has been the Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.